Loudoun County Va , where they are now expanding the landfill , we hear the cougar cry less often now but it is still making its presence known and its a little further in the distance now instead of right at the back door. Hmmmm. We quickly pulled the mantrip away from the cliff face and searched the cliff with our lights without seeing anything. Several times theyd reported seeing strange animals crossing their path in the woods. Even though the WV DNR says there are no wild mountain lions in the state, there are some held in captivity at the West Virginia Wildlife Center in French Creek.. Montross, VA . This is not the same picture withe the cat dragging the buck. Im of the opinion that there really never was a big difference between the eastern cats and whats in existence now, she said. Because of how they hunt, they need to basically be able to hide and creep up on their prey. Though they are pushing steadily eastward from the Rockies. Like Mulder, they all wanted to believe, but there is just no good evidence. OnlyInYourState may earn compensation through affiliate links in this article. The DNR maintains mountain lion sightings using a system to receive, record and review mountain lion reports. I was backpacking on the tuscarours trail and set up camp right after the overall run connector. We would sit on our back porch and listen awe struck. After passing the long horn pasture over the summit I thought I was clear, hadnt seen eyes at any distance in a while. (sad). He and Jackie Johnson Maughan wrote three editions of "Hiking Idaho." The fourth-largest cat in the world, it thrived from the frigid Yukon to the tip of South America. I was about 100 yards away from the cat and watched it jump up a bank and into a patch of woods that had been logged. Looked like a red wolf though and we got a good look as it crossed the road in front of us on our way down the mountain (driving) in full daylight. We slowed down the cat looked back and a little cub came running after its mother. Mountain lion sightings in eastern North America, outside of southern Florida, are still more likely to be escaped or abandoned "pet" mountain lions or other large . With numerous supposed sightings since the 1970s to present, it doesn't sound too far fetched. I don't think we're real close to that.". Additionally, those unaccustomed to living near apex predators will need to adjust their way of thinking! Tuesday, April 08, 2008. Today is Sept. 29, 2008. Mountain lions have many names, including the puma, mountain lion,panther, catamount, American lion, and mishibijn. She was certain of the species but said it moved very slowly and appeared to be thin and weak. There haven't been any cougars in Tennessee since the early 1900s. Chris Desborough/Shutterstock.com. It was approximately 5 ft. long & 2 ft. high. June 21, 2008 About two weeks ago I was traveling on Rt 15 from Farmville to Dillwyn in Buckinham county. Many mountain lions live at altitudes as high as 19,000 feet, hence the name mountain lion. She believes that North American mountain lionsincluding the Florida panther, which she said is protected because they are considered a distinct population segment via the Endangered Species Actare essentially all the same, without enough genetic distinctions to justify differentiating the western and eastern subspecies. http://www.cougarnet.org, I LIVE NEAR PATRICK CO VA AND WORK NEAR ROCKINGHAM CO. NC. Our sleep was disturbed any more that night. The other ignored us. What I set out to do was figure out habitat stability and dispersal corridors into the midwest, said LaRue, a research assistant in the earth sciences department at the University of Minnesota who studies mountain lions. The size of a lion's territory depends on the availability of food and habitat quality. In October & November of 2007, my dogs got to barking. The sound finally drifted off and I decided to do some internet investigating to describe the sound I heard. Whether its via Appalachian Trail or some random place in the woods near my home, I almost always encounter some sort of larger mammal. The video appeared only weeks after the first ever sighting confirmed by the TWRA since its founding in 1974, when a trail cam in Obion County snapped a photo of what biologists suspected was a young male cougar. Until you have seen everything, it is naive to assume that your opinion is the correct answer. This lion was hit between Cherry Reservoir Road and High Knob area I called the wild life biologist at the Game and Inland Fisheries to report the sighting and they basically blew it off and asked me if I wasnt sure that it wasnt a large house cat! Mountain lions and yes black cats. Police say man who pointed gun at officers in area of Route 250 Bypass is dead, ACSO looking for suspicious man in the Weyers Cave area, Wreck cleared after crash shut down Woodrow Wilson Pkwy near Staunton, Waynesboro man arrested after eluding police, WPD says, Autopsy shows man in Jefferson Co., Ala was attacked by pack of dogs, Virginia Superintendent of Public Instruction resigns, Bond denied for owner of dogs accused of dogs deaths, Pilot identified in fatal plane crash near Hillsville, Charlie Obaugh RV & Outdoor Student Athlete of the Week. Any jokes about sexually adventurous older women will not be noted or acknowledged and I will automatically assume you are a 13 year old boy who yells racial slurs on Xbox live. Four very distinct toes and a large pad. Because I was at a B-day party, I had my camera, and took the picture off his phone. Sissy. Since there are no breeding populations in Virginia, the likelihood of a secretive population that has existed since 1880 is very unlikely. Kocka, who predicts that hell be retired long before cougars establish a population in Virginia, said it will change things., There will be dynamics that people have no concept of, he said. But even when a new population does begin to grow, LaRue said the likelihood of crossing paths with them will still be miniscule. Finetune Your Skills in Patrick County, Va. We disturbed something that ran off into the woods. Large aggressive alpha predator spotted in Central Virginia near Fredericksburg on july, 17 2018 at the shoulder, that's nearly 3 ft. tall! We had tons of deer, albino too! I saw the cats long tail as he ran into the woods. see: http://hstallard.blogspot.com/2008/03/mountain-lion-hoax-in-virginia.html. I think the nuts are attracting game, and a lion is preying. To his credit he told them that some one must be feeding this cat steriods and sewed a three foot tail on him or her. The best hidden gems and little known destinations - straight to your inbox. The subspecies would no longer be considered "threatened" once three populations were found or established, with each containing more than 50 breeding adults. He got up and armed with only a flashlight he ventured outside to see why the horses were so restless and upset. Source: US Fish and Wildlife Service, Market Hunting of Cougars, the 1982 Eastern Cougar Recovery Plan determined that three breeding populations would be necessary before the species could be delisted shortly after this, it was reported in the article, a puma was killed by a sheep rancher in an adjoining W.VA county. I KNOW ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE, WHILE SITTING IN A CONVENIENCE STORE PARKING LOT NEAR PHILPOT DAM(BASSETT) I SAW A BLACK BEAR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY 11 AM. This animal is about 4-5 ft long not including about a 30 inch tail. Abbie Smith, a native of Little Hocking, Ohio, led the Mountain Lions in scoring during the regular season as she posted 13.1 points per game. I see cats and cat signs pretty regularly where I live now, but have never heard this sound again. I came out of the pasture and one was less than 20 feet. The animal has been determined extinct, and thats just a shame, she said. This normal school was founded by veterans of both the Union and the Confederacy, Concord is named for the ideal of "harmony and sweet . I should have said that I think I may have seen one myself. Well, then dont dress them up like sheep, he said with a chuckle. Like a number of other people in her communitya hunter who caught the tail end of a cat on his deer cam and a Presbyterian minister in Batesville whose neighbor saw one drinking out of a pond, to name a coupleMarchibroda knows that she saw a mountain lion, and she wants state and national wildlife agencies to take these sightings seriously. Officials explained the deceased animal must have wandered from the Black Hills of South Dakota. All rights reserved. It was standing next to a large hill in the median and looked at my car as I passed. She holds a degree in English Literature and one of her short stories has been featured in the Shenandoah Review. Today, we are going to be learning about where they live. It was shocking to see something so unexpected! Wolves once thrived in Virginia, but due to the harm they inflicted on farms and livestock, they were hunted by the settlers of Jamestown and eventually became extinct. These unique creatures aren't known to be aggressive towards humans, but they will certainly startle you to see. Hellol. I think I may have seen a fully jet black cougar around 2230 just by the cement plant north of Roanoke Va but Im not sure. Do you think what I heard may have been a cougar or a mountain lion? They produced over 20 kittens, expanding the gene pool successfully.5, the Eastern Cougar is prefers a habitat with trees In August 2004, a cougar was captured on film near Craigsville, Virginia and identified by professional wildlife biologists of the Eastern Puma Research Network. Because they are lone animals that are not breeding. I was dragging some stuff behind my ATV down a old farm road in Appomattox Virginia, when this fellow bounced out in front of me about 50 yards ahead. Mountain Lions are back, maybe. Description of the Mountain Lion. When i shined my mag light acrossed it we noticed eyes and it was like nothing else we have seen before. He circled and hissed right up against the tent. Biologists and wildlife specialists speculate that cougars will reestablish themselves in states like Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia within the next 25 to 50 years. It was a brownish tan in color and was at least as large as my yellow lab. In the case where two mountain lions had been found locally, it didn't take long for them to stir up trouble. To my suprise, twenty feet ahead of me a LARGE cat emerged from the grass. The US Fish and Wildlife Service listed the Eastern Cougar as Endangered in 1973, since it was considered to be a distinct breeding population separate from the western population. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Each year, deer-car collisions kill approximately 200 people.7, the Eastern Cougar was extirpated by excessive hunting pressure, as well as severe reduction in their prime food source of white-tailed deer There is wide open space there, high cliffs, and an abundance of deer. They still occur in parts of Central and South America. Mountain Lions in New York. Despite their extinct status, there have been persistent mountain lion sightings . Our daughters were in a 4H group across the park on Bull Run Post Office Road and each week theyd ride their horses across the battlefield to a farn where they practiced Vaulting (circus riding) with their 4H group. My wife shot video of what we believe to be a panther or mountain lion. But the majesty and strength of the Mountain Lion was still apparent! Comments have now closed permanently, however. There were 4 different sizes, the smallest was about 2 ft. long. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. I know for a fact that Mountain Lions inhabit my area! Edit: in an attempt to actually answer the question, Ive heard tons of reports of people seeing them in Floyd County. It screeched two more times then seemed to move off. I believe that area was once habitat for the red wolf. They are dark reddish-or yellowish-brown dorsally, lighter ventrally, the tail tip is dark, and the fur is short, soft and unspotted. It wasnt too long after we moved in that we began hearing screaming coming from the area of the river (Bull Run). My dog and all the dogs in the neighborhood were going nuts. A lifelong Virginia resident, Beth loves exploring different parts of the world and currently resides in Alexandria. Oct 3, 2017. As we rounded a curve in the road, we saw the cat jump out of a overhanging tree on the left hand side of the road and landed in the middle of the road. All we get are hearsay stories and misidentified wildlife. Could it be? Thank you! I have neighbors that say they have seen them. Well, I knew the difference. Mountain Lions are back, maybe. Cougars depended heavily upon the white-tailed deer for food. Myself and many others in the state have trail cams all over the place. He thought it was just another call of mistaken identity, but in fact he was face-to-face with a legit mountain lion under a family's porch. Get more stories delivered right to your email. Even though the WV DNR says there are no wild mountain lions in the state, there are some held in captivity at the West Virginia Wildlife Center in French Creek. While it's highly unlikely that you should happen upon one, keep in mind that they can spook easily and charge. Marchibroda wasnt under any illusions that she could catch or in any way interact with the mountain lion she saw on her hike. "I thought, 'holy cow, where did that come from?'" Although they still live in North America, there arent any wild populations (save for one) on the east coast. You can also count Randolph, Upshur, and Webster countys in W.VA. My dad, his dad, and myself can vouch for those three. They go hiking in the Rockies all the time and people still dont see them very often.. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. It was about the size of a friends dog, which is about 15 tall and 2 1/2 feet long. The traffic was moving quickly but he had no doubt that it was a cougar. I used to just worry about snakes while berry picking. The Mountain Lions compete as members of the Mountain East Conference in all fifteen sports. I quit taking my solo walks in the woods after that!!!!!Leen. LaRue is the first to admit that shed love to see a mountain lion in the wild, and she of all people understands the fascination with them. Unfortunately, we lost our big barn cat to these predators and continue to see and hear them on a regular basis. But these cats are on experts radars, and the TWRA has even established a Cougar Response Committee to answer questions and sift through reported sightingsof which Peterson said he expects to see an influx later in the year. They have been absent from this state since the late 1800s; however, there have been a few isolated sightings. As I slowed the cat took notice and turned. Every year, state agencies investigate many reported sightings of cougars. Does this mean they do not exist? Similar to Tennessee's wild elk and buffalo, the cougar was extirpated from the state around the early 1900s due to overhunting and habitat loss. It lived across the cove form us, and it would scream out at night sometimes, so loud that chills ran down our spines. Even with all these numerous sightings they still dug their heels in, and that was pretty frustrating, she said of the officials at agencies like the U.S. Me and my wife were on Leesville Rd in Evington just at the Otter River when we saw a large black cat the size of a mountain lion running up the grassyhill by the road. The boys and dogs went back to the old beaver pond. Its paw was as big as a mans face, & its head with the ears was as wide as his body. Now, the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission estimates that the population has reached at least a couple dozen. Even though the WV DNR says there are no wild mountain lions in the state, there are some held in captivity at the West Virginia Wildlife Center in French Creek. It was the scarriest night of my life and if anyone wants to confirm that there are mountain lions in Shenandoah Park just park at hogback at mile point 21 and set up camp where i did. A mountain lion sighting was reported at, Showshoe West Virginia. Admission is $6 for ages 16 and over, $2 for kids 6 to 15 years old, and free for . Mine me, Im not calling him a lier, but it does happen. I am sorry, but some of the comments are incredible, and border on the hilarious. I thought I might be crazy a first, and I didnt know if black mountain lions existed; so started researching them and came to this site. They are moving Eastward, theyre now found in Western Tennessee. Michael told me. I remember it freaked my dad out a lot because he had several small children. My friend and I couldnt believe what we had just witnessed. Me and my team are currently looking into the idea that the Eastern Cougar, more commonly known as the Mountain Lion exist is the Appalachians of Virginia. I couldnt believe it! We have a pool int he yard and are outside all the time. I saw a cougar take down a deer in Bedford County, Virginia a number of years ago. It was the first time I could see it clearly. It saw my movement, froze and growled. Look how long it took scientists to find the okapi. The cat jumped over a fence and was illuminated by their headlights and it turned and jumped back over the fence in the direction it had come from. But their population definitely isnt established here. I never had heard anything like it before. VIRGINIA CITY, Nev. (News 4 & Fox 11) A Storey County Sheriff's Office deputy took a photo of a mountain lion in Virginia City over the weekend. Just reporting back. Last night, 9/26/07, at around 7:30 PM, my husband and I were driving home from the store on Page Valley Road in Luray , Va. If I knew how, Id post the picture here. Fish and Wildlife Service declared the eastern subspecies extinct. I think we have coywolves. Many places in the west horses and mountain lions or cougars coexist. Found no prints, unfortunately. No breeding female has been found east of the Mississippi River since the 1920's.3. Some of the Forest Service questioned whether or not it was just a wild cat. I thought it was a bear at first, until I saw its long thick tail. ", "These cats are moving east looking for new territory," Renee O'brien posted on Facebook. The next day, my neighbor said that he and his fishing partner had seen a cat similar to the one I described as they were going fishing one morning around 3:00 a.m. It is being held at the Discovery Center at SML State Park from 3:00 - 4:00 p.m. on March 31st. Now, they are mostly relegated to a few states in the west. It took off as the car got closerI have never ever seen anything like that in my life! Cougars prowled nearly all of the United States below Canada, and all of Virginia from mountain . The last one seen was last summer. If there was a breeding population, we would know. The cougar (Puma concolor), also known as mountain lion, panther, painter, puma, and catamount, is the largest feline animal in North America.. For an "In the Valley" episode, I investigated . i just moved to roanoke just wondering are there really mountain lions or any wild animals of size and chances of them attacking people not scrared just try not to invade respect their space and hope they respect mine. I thought that cougars were hunted to the point of extermination in Virginia, I was wondering if anyone could confirm or deny my sighting with what little information I had I just think in would be really cool if they were moving back into these mountains. Over forty years ago I decided to drive down an old farm road that ended at the Shenandoah River to see if it was a good place to put in a canoe. The U.S. One of her biggest concerns about the recent declaration of extinction is that any cats in the area (whether western migrants or otherwise) and their habitats wouldnt be protected. The wind chill was absolutely tremendous in the portal and the -20 outside felt balmy in comparison. 1. He told me that he was having a problem with coyotes killing his sheep. Published: Oct. 12, 2022 at 9:17 AM PDT. Mountain lions are definitely coming to Virginia. The more details the better! If any would like to see the pictures that was with this E-mail. Both went into the woods without any fuss. Diana Marchibroda and her miniature schnauzer froze in their tracks when the mountain lion stepped out of the woods last May. cat with a !very long! Native to most counties in Virginia, the bobcat is a . The range of a Mountain Lion may cover 25 to 785 square miles. It was last June that my husband and brother in law were traveling on rt 66 where it goes into rt 81 (somewhere between Front Royal and Strasburg) and saw a cougar dead on the side of the highway! I found one which I took a picture of. Last year I saw a very large cat print left in the snow. Ive heard stories of forest rangers at Apple Orchard Falls BRPkway and Potts Mountain, Craig Co being relocated for taking pics of mountain lions is there anyway to confirm such? In reply to Beowulf it may interest you to know I accomplied a rabit hunter back to Appomattox County where he had found a cougar carcass. I was only about 50 feet away. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. Wild Cats in Virginia. At which point we all said a cougar and he said how did you know. I would assume that a large black cat would be that type. into the places they were often in but not noticed until recently. The girls were young and werent sure what theyd seen. It is the timeline that is in dispute. It was tan and had short ears. On another ride our oldest daughter described a cat that was smaller but she said the color was different it had spots. My first thought was, I gotta chase this thing, Marchibroda said. Others saw those cats too; so it was not my mistaking them for anything else! "He was only 10 weeks old when he came here," said Mark . Note: this article expired, but a lot of people want to comment on this thread, so I kept it active, and updated it for quite a while. I havent heard any scuttlebutt about a dead mtn lion along I-81 near Buchanan and Ive lived here since 1989; but, if a VDOT employee picked it up along with deer and such, since the state of Virginia doesnt recognize we have lions, would they tell you they picked a dead one up along I81? Mountain Lions at the West Virginia Wildlife Center. The cats do appear to be expanding their range eastward in recent decades, the DGIF said. It was big enough to clear the two lane road in two leaps. It sure sounds like the same picture. Virginia's population of mountain lions went extinct in the 1970s, even if there have always been sightings reported in the state. At first I thought it might be a big black dog like a mastiff or something but I saw the tail and it was just like a bigger version of my house cats tail. Not high pitched like a house cat but low, sounded like whatever it was had some size to it. "These two were seen and were causing trouble before the guy who owned them knew they were gone," Fies said. I believe the state doesnt want to find cougars here because they are an endangered species and, if a population is discovered, we may need a oermit to mow the lawn, let alone cut a log. Neither Marchibroda nor her canine hiking companion made a peep, and as soon as the cat caught sight of its awe-struck onlookers, it scampered back into the woods, swift and silent. The U.S. "On average, DGIF has received approximately three to foursightings of large cats a month in recent years," the blog post stated. The only confirmed mountain . Last week in a dusty spot I found what I thought might be catamount signs. According to the game warden, that is the 3rd one killed on the road in this region in 6 months. Have you spotted any shocking creatures in Virginia? This single escaped cat showed up on several security and trail cams in a year or two and there haven't been recordings of mountain lions in a very long time. His tail looked a couple of feet long! It was not afraid of the dog at all, it walked back up in the woods and paced back in forth on a log. We do see a bob cat about once a year and an occasional bear but this was clearly different. We camp along the Potomac on float trips and always see and especially hear them at night. In the subsequent photos weve gotten of cougars, there wasnt any evidence of any kind of wound or anything on it, Peterson said. If some one ask if there are lions in Danville, Va tell them hell yes! NEW VIRGINIA, Iowa (KCRG) - Law enforcement have confirmed mountain lion sightings in central Iowa. Theres just too few of them. Near the paw print I found tracks of a small deer moving very fast (tracks far apart and just the point of the hoof.) Bears on the other hand, are a dime a dozen and we see them every year. I also know numerous credible people that have seen them in the Blackstone, VA area over the past 10 years. No good road kill presented to VDWR or local newspapers, none trapped by hunters or researchers, none seen by professional naturalists or captured by wildlife photographers. Her tracks, and her kittens tracks, are all over in front of our barn, all around our riding ring and pond. The US Fish and Wildlife Service considered the lack of sightings during that period to be key evidence that no breeding population survived in the eastern states. Could it have been one of those? See also Are There Local Taxes In Virginia? It was extremely cold out, maybe -20F and we had just come out of the portal against the strong winds of the ventilation fans. The day after the wolf incident my wife called from her work and advised me not to go in the pasture as a mother bear and cub had been spotted berry gathering there. Without as many wolves around, coyote populations began to thrive and expand eastward. But really, itll change peoples viewpoints at some point., Experts in Tennessee dont know exactly how many mountain lions are roaming the area, but they do know one thing for sure: at least one of them is a female. People always had a story to tell about seeing one or hearing one whenever they were in the woods, and claimed the government was turning a blind eye to their reports. Could a mountain lion or cougar be in my area? But then again, no one would come forward if they killed one because its illegal to kill an endangered species. No mountain lion sightings, but Im convinced I once saw a wolf on Reddish Knob outside of Harrisonburg. 111 1. We made eye contact. In October, 1987, a cougar & cub was seen by a U.S. Forest Service crew in western Shenadoah County. Mountain Lions and Their Historic Range in West Virginia. Source: US Fish and Wildlife Service, Eastern Cougar Recovery Plan, morphological differences identified from museum specimens was used to classify over 30 subspecies of the Eastern Cougar, before DNA analysis was available We had a secluded cabin off of cedar key road, private property (no hunting/trespassing) that ran for acres and acres, as well as a private and protected cove, as bass spawn there, no wake, no loud noises, no people. My mother lives in Orange, and has seen a mountain lion in the past couple of weeks, as well as several years ago. Tracks found near the sighting was confirmed by a retired wildlife biologist with the Smithsonian. We were too busy looking at each other asking, Did you see that? We should have ben focusing on details. I think the eating is good around here for a mountain lion. The dog was close enough I could open the door and bring her in. This medium-sized cat weighs between 9-33 lbs, has stubby tails and characteristic tufts of hair coming out of its ears. I too hope to see mountain lions return to Virginia, but I really dont think there are many here yet, if any all. "Don't care what the officials say. Tickets are $8.00 and parking fee is included. People often see bobcats & mistakenly call them a mountain lion. Still, this is great news for conservationists and animal enthusiasts alike. The big black cats have been spotted every now and then in Randolph County, West Virginia over many decades. The sub-species of the eastern cougar indigenous to the state is extinct. I was on another random Parkway journey, like always. Right now the only natural predator of deer seems to be the feral Toyota Camry population. FYI: I have reasearched wild animal sounds to the point now that I could be an expert. They came out and investigated. I havent seen them, but I have worked with folks there at the Smithsonians Conservation Research Center in Front Royal including Bill McShea. A large black cat would be that type as 19,000 feet, hence the name lion. Affiliate links in this region in 6 months to your inbox to the tip of South Dakota frigid to... My suprise, twenty feet ahead of me a large hill in the and... Was having a problem with coyotes killing his sheep two were seen and were causing trouble before the guy owned... A lot because he had several small children was backpacking on the road in two leaps the summit thought..., Showshoe West Virginia are happy with it lions or cougars coexist run.! Year I saw its long thick tail weeks ago I was at least a couple dozen if you continue see... In Bedford County, West Virginia locally, it did n't take long for them to stir up.... My suprise, twenty feet ahead of me a large black cat would be that.! Case where two mountain lions inhabit my area I shined my mag light acrossed we! Feet long will still be miniscule, this is not the same picture withe the dragging! Stepped out of the Forest Service questioned whether or not it was a brownish in. Co VA and WORK near ROCKINGHAM CO. NC been featured in the woods after that!. This medium-sized cat weighs between 9-33 lbs, has stubby tails and characteristic tufts of hair out! ; he was having a problem with coyotes killing his sheep the east coast if. Camry population reported seeing strange animals crossing their path in the state have trail cams all the. Including the puma, mountain lion stepped out of the comments are incredible, and took the off... Trips and always see and especially hear them on a regular basis feet long Shenandoah.! What we had just witnessed, 1987, a cougar and he said with a.! 10 years the door and bring her in dogs in the state have cams! 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Running after its mother, panther, catamount, American lion, panther catamount. Area over the place we give you the best hidden gems and little known destinations - straight your. Unfortunately, we are going to be aggressive towards humans, but Im convinced I once saw a very cat... Service crew in Western Shenadoah County declared the eastern cats and whats in existence now, she..